What does horse poo and poison ivy have in common?

[tromoly]

Personally I don't like horse poo on the trail.

With that said, comparing SWK now with how it was even in the summer of 2007, you can actually see the trails now and know where the trail is, there is no denying that the work Cambr has put in has made the trails better. And if you try comparing even 2007 to how it was in 2005, you might as well have carved SWK out of a jungle!

Yes, equestrians have been there forever, my grandma agrees with that. But today from what I've heard, 99% of the trail maintanance is done by mountain bikers. Does that mean that MTBers have no say in some things? I personally don't see how a request to pick up after a pet (horses are still pets, you own and enjoy them as any other animal) is met with such negativity even though there are viable options to remedy the matter.

I have no problem with horses, but with equal trail usage comes equal responsibility with waste of all types when on the trail.

Anyways, that's just my thoughts, I'll be at SWK 2-7 times next week, see you all there.

[tihsepa]

I rode there today and the only people there were on horses. They were 5 cool old dudes enjoying the trail. It was dry enough I left no trace but they did. I however noticed a few fresh piles swept off the trail today. Did they read this? I dunno but they were cool and I had no issue.

[kevin marley]

I agree with John, the equestrians built the trails in the 60's, they are very nice people and very appreciative of what we have done.  We are on their turf and should not forget that...
  
The equestrians at SWK are alright in my book...

I agree I think we have a great relationship between bikers, hikers, and horses at SWK.  I would hate to see that turn sour because we started bitching about horse poop. Compared to some areas of the country where you hear horror stories about user groups fighting over trails, we are best friends for life with hikers and horse riders.

There was horse crap on the trails the first time I rode them before CAMBr ever got involved with trail maintenance at SWK. We came along and the horse people have always been cool with sharing their trails with us and letting us groom them for bikes.  I'm willing to ride around some horse crap to be allowed to ride there.

If some horse rider did go sweep their horse's poop off the trail then that's a bonus, and they are a courteous trail user. Thank you anonymous horse rider, hiker, or whoever did their part maintaining the trails.  We appreciate your effort to keep the trails clear.

[tihsepa]

I also hauled about 4 red bull cans out of there today. God help the maggot I spot tossing trash in the bushes. I'll have to stick em in the liverez with a rotor or sumthin. 

[Jacque O]

Wow! This hot topic is sizzling! Maybe we should consult "The View"
Horse poop does biodegrade quickly, much more quickly than dog poop. It ends up being hay with a little bit of grain pretty quickly. To compare it to human waste is ridiculous.
(playing a little devil's advocate here)If we're going with the "leave no trace" theory, then maybe mountain bikers should remove all the logs that have been strategically placed for fun jumping. I've picked up more garbage from mountain bikers (bottles, bike glove pkging, bits of plastic broken off of bikes) then anyone else. If you're going to get angry about someone, get angry at the kids drinking beer in the park and leaving their cans and cigarette butts all around and wrecking the park.
Mountain bikers are some of the toughest fearless people I've seen and yet you're letting a little bit of horse poop get in your way.
I asked around at my barn (which is IN Oswego, these people pay taxes for THIS park!) this morning for ideas. This is what I heard:
Equestrians are not going to leave their horses to go and pick up poop.  It's not safe for the horse or surrounding people.
Sadly with all the building that's happened over the years, trail riding on horse back is becoming a thing of the past (therefore we're going to get more horses out at SWK)
SWK was an equestrian trail to begin with, without the horses you wouldn't be able to enjoy this park.
So bottom line? How can we all enjoy the park together? I'm going back to mapping the best equestrian trails. Any other ideas?

[tihsepa]

We bike people need to put up with it. Heck, I finally washed my bike. Dirt ok. Poop not ok. I rode through a bunch of it today.

[Red Snail Racing]

I do think expecting horses to wear poop bags might be asking a lot.  Asking someone to carry out horse poop is just silly, when it can be swept off the trail, with so little effort, and I know that as I do it many times on my first laps early in the morning and I have to add there was one pile that looked like it came from a rhino. (Did that horse go put for burritos the night before?) 

So if equestrians make an effort to clean up, particularly in the parking lot and after group rides, and both equestrians and mtb'ers scrap poop away when it makes sense, instead of just riding through it and complaining about riding through it, it would be a step in the right direction.

SWK is getting more bike riders than ever before and it sounds like there is going to be more horse riders than ever before, so we have to figure this one out folks.

btw: horse poop is much less objectionable than dog poop as dogs eat protein, not grass and horse poop does dry out pretty fast.  I don't like it, but it is less disgusting.

[adhd-tv]

I asked around at my barn (which is IN Oswego, these people pay taxes for THIS park!) this morning for ideas.

we all pay taxes for all parks in the state of IL...

*EDIT*...this is an assumption on my part

[RenegadeRick]

we all pay taxes for all parks in the state of IL...

I don't think so. SWK is not an IL state park. It is operated by Oswegoland PD, and I assume they own the property and collect property tax revenue to fund their operations. Perhaps there is a state grant or something that they get money from, but I don't know anything about that.

This is a sensitive topic and it would be wise for us to speak about facts and not make assumptions (like I just did above  ). I really appreciate the trails at SWK and the opportunity to ride there. I am happy to contribute what I can to their success. Thank you to everyone who helps make that place a reality.

[baudler]

Here is the best way for riders of bikes and horses to get along at SWK...bikers need to be happy that the equestrians have allowed us out there and get on with it.  The Fox Valley Trail riders are the group that built the trails out there some 50 years ago.  The FVTR had a great relationship with the park district before we came along.  SWK was designated for horse riding and hiking, not biking.  For some reason, the equestrians didn't mind us coming out there and didn't mind the park district allowing bikes out there.  So we owe FVTR a huge thank you for that.  Oswego is an old fashioned town and the "I pay taxes thing" doesn't fly there.  FVTR riders were there first and that is just how it is.  My point is...if it ever came down to it, you would see a NO MTB sign up there long before a NO HORSE sign.

When CAMBr started out there back in...2004..wow, long time ago.  Russ and I went to a FVTR meeting to tell them what we were planning on doing and to get any of their input.  They were very welcoming and even bought us a beer.  Honestly, they really are nice people.  They are not the "stereotypical" equestrians CAMBr is used to - rich people who ride the equine for sport and prestige.  They are down home friendly people who have a lot of land and horses are just a daily part of their lives.  Horses are not just "pets" to them.  It might not be a bad idea for CAMBr to ask to come to one of their board meetings every year just to check in and make sure we are all on the same page still.

Put yourself in the equestrians shoes...would you want bikes out there?  That could spook the horses and get someone hurt?  We really are lucky how welcoming they have been.  And many times they have stopped to say thanks for the trail work.  Most of them liked the trails more rugged, so they don't really need to care about trail work.  There have been two times were equestrians helped me to clear some fallen trees, so they do their part there.  They also ride with machetes and chop away poison ivy.  I would never expect them to come to one of our work days.

I don't mean to be the old guy lecturing, just giving everyone the history there.  We laid very good groundwork with them in 2004 and it has been a great relationship to far.  I don't want things to turn into an us vs them thing.  The FVTR don't complain about us being out there, so we shouldn't really either.  We are lucky that the CAMBr / FVTR relationship is so good.  We don't have any of the problems they do at some of our South riding destinations.  This topic really is a moot point.  Things could not be much better at SWK for CAMBr.  If horse poop is our biggest obstacle, I'll gladly take it.

[tihsepa]

Here is the best way for riders of bikes and horses to get along at SWK...bikers need to be happy that the equestrians have allowed us out there and get on with it.  The Fox Valley Trail riders are the group that built the trails out there some 50 years ago.  The FVTR had a great relationship with the park district before we came along.  SWK was designated for horse riding and hiking, not biking.  For some reason, the equestrians didn't mind us coming out there and didn't mind the park district allowing bikes out there.  So we owe FVTR a huge thank you for that.  Oswego is an old fashioned town and the "I pay taxes thing" doesn't fly there.  FVTR riders were there first and that is just how it is.  My point is...if it ever came down to it, you would see a NO MTB sign up there long before a NO HORSE sign.

When CAMBr started out there back in...2004..wow, long time ago.  Russ and I went to a FVTR meeting to tell them what we were planning on doing and to get any of their input.  They were very welcoming and even bought us a beer.  Honestly, they really are nice people.  They are not the "stereotypical" equestrians CAMBr is used to - rich people who ride the equine for sport and prestige.  They are down home friendly people who have a lot of land and horses are just a daily part of their lives.  Horses are not just "pets" to them.  It might not be a bad idea for CAMBr to ask to come to one of their board meetings every year just to check in and make sure we are all on the same page still.

Put yourself in the equestrians shoes...would you want bikes out there?  That could spook the horses and get someone hurt?  We really are lucky how welcoming they have been.  And many times they have stopped to say thanks for the trail work.  Most of them liked the trails more rugged, so they don't really need to care about trail work.  There have been two times were equestrians helped me to clear some fallen trees, so they do their part there.  They also ride with machetes and chop away poison ivy.  I would never expect them to come to one of our work days.

I don't mean to be the old guy lecturing, just giving everyone the history there.  We laid very good groundwork with them in 2004 and it has been a great relationship to far.  I don't want things to turn into an us vs them thing.  The FVTR don't complain about us being out there, so we shouldn't really either.  We are lucky that the CAMBr / FVTR relationship is so good.  We don't have any of the problems they do at some of our South riding destinations.  This topic really is a moot point.  Things could not be much better at SWK for CAMBr.  If horse poop is our biggest obstacle, I'll gladly take it.

Just to echo. I ran across 5 or 6 yesterday. They are cool people and very welcoming. I asked them in the lot how they wanted me to approach and pass and they respected that. The nice thing about them on horses is that they talk alot and you can kind of figure out where they are and what direction they are heading. You can just go the other way. 

[Bearfan]

Wow! This hot topic is sizzling! Maybe we should consult "The View"
Horse poop does biodegrade quickly, much more quickly than dog poop. It ends up being hay with a little bit of grain pretty quickly. To compare it to human waste is ridiculous.
(playing a little devil's advocate here)If we're going with the "leave no trace" theory, then maybe mountain bikers should remove all the logs that have been strategically placed for fun jumping. I've picked up more garbage from mountain bikers (bottles, bike glove pkging, bits of plastic broken off of bikes) then anyone else. If you're going to get angry about someone, get angry at the kids drinking beer in the park and leaving their cans and cigarette butts all around and wrecking the park.
Mountain bikers are some of the toughest fearless people I've seen and yet you're letting a little bit of horse poop get in your way.
I asked around at my barn (which is IN Oswego, these people pay taxes for THIS park!) this morning for ideas. This is what I heard:
Equestrians are not going to leave their horses to go and pick up poop.  It's not safe for the horse or surrounding people.
Sadly with all the building that's happened over the years, trail riding on horse back is becoming a thing of the past (therefore we're going to get more horses out at SWK)
SWK was an equestrian trail to begin with, without the horses you wouldn't be able to enjoy this park.
So bottom line? How can we all enjoy the park together? I'm going back to mapping the best equestrian trails. Any other ideas?

It's just horse poop.  I'll ride through that any day.  Come on, it's just another part of the trail.  It's a lot better than some of those large loose rocks rolling around, the sand, loose gravel, oh did I mention the big loose rocks rolling around.  "Manure Happens!"  Just keep your mouth closed when flying over it.  Horses are beautiful, powerful creatures.   They can poop all they want, it's good for the soil.

[Jacque O]

I think my good intentions have been misunderstood. I thought you all might be understanding of the equestrian point of view, if you had a little insight. Some of my light heartedness (ie: running tires through horse poo) was taken seriously, when it was not meant to be.   I apologize if I've offended anyone. My original thought was to see how we could work this out between horse rider and bike rider. Here's one more try:
Poop is just part of life for the equestrian and it's not viewed as offensive. Generally, it would not occur to the equestrian that leaving horse poop on the trail was not "using the trail in good faith". It's not an uppity thing. It's just how it is. Heck, most of the time, we don't even know when our horse is pooping because they just keep on moving forward. We can try to educate the equestrian community, but I'm not sure how to do that.  My original thought was to supply maps for the equestrian community. For example, the trails next to the river between the parking lots is now all wood chips and ideal for trail riding on horseback. Going down Devil's Dip on a horse? I wouldn't want to stress his joints on a trail like that. That's the kind of info that would be valueable. I've been asked about the trail terrain by equestrians while bike riding.
I know some parks in Naperville supply doggie poop bags. I have no idea if that's feasible to supply those for a horse or how a horse that has never worn one of those bags would respond.
I am a mountain biker as well. I put up with the crap in the trail, just like you do. I'm appreciative of all the work that has been done on the trails by Cambr. I've only started mountain biking last summer and am getting a crash course (pun intended) by learning at SWK. I'm hoping to get out for the next work day and will be happy to meet you all. You're all gonna be there, right???

[RenegadeRick]

You're all gonna be there, right???

Yep. Each and every one of us.